A Hindu Perspective on the Importance of Dialogue

Dialogue has always been important in Hinduism. Many of the Upanishads (religious texts) take the form of a dialogue, discussing philosophy from different points of view. Many of the Hindu saints were renowned for their debate and dialogue, frequently changing their opinions as a result. In the Manisha Panchakam, Adi Shankara starts by asking an outcast to move aside, and ends up concluding that when one knows God, then caste is irrelevant, and that the outcast is Shiva himself. Satsang (literally meaning true company), is respectful dialogue among devotees along with reflection and meditation.  This is positively encouraged by many Hindu lineages. Nowadays this sometimes takes place in closed internet forums, private social networking groups, etc. This is seen as valuable as long as it aids learning and spirituality and does not lead to discord.

As well as having a lively tradition of dialogue within Hinduism, this has always extended to other dharmic religions. This is hardly surprising, as the dividing line between Hindu traditions and non-Hindu traditions is not clear cut. You might say that Sikhs are not Hindus because they reject the vedas, have their own saints, and don’t use murtis (devotional images). However the same is true of many sects that are generally accepted to be non-orthodox branches of Hinduism, such as Veera Saiva and Arya Samaj. Relations between Hindus and members of other dharmic religions are often very close, in many cases Hindus and Buddhists share temples (such as the the Bagh Bhairav Temple in Kirtipur) and festivals. Similarly festivals at my local Mandir are frequently attended by Sikhs, and Hindus often attend festivals in the local Gurdwara. Historically we can see the interplay between dharmic religions. The Hindu school of Advaita Vedanta and Buddhism certainly had an influence on each other, and Jainism played a part in emphasising Hinduism’s vegetarian tradition.

With this ongoing history of cooperation and respect between dharmic religions it is not surprising that Hindus are often at the forefront of Inter-religious dialogue and events. The 2009 “World Religions Dialogue and Symphony” was initiated by the Hindu preacher Morari Bapu, and many local, national, and international events are well attended by Hindus. Swami Vivekananda’s address at the World Congress of Religions in 1893 is often considered one of the best pro-interfaith speeches of all time.

However many Hindus are ambivalent about dialogue with non-dharmic religions. One reason for this is that Hindus attending these events are often seen by others as representing Hinduism as a whole. Many non-Hindus don’t realise how much diversity there is within Hinduism. For a follower of one of the Abrahamic religions I compare speaking for Hinduism to speaking for all Abrahamic religions:  Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarians, Shia Islam, Suni Islam, Ahmadiyya, Bahai, Mandeans, Druze, and all sects of Judaism. Imagine also that a lot of the other attendees had been taught that Branch Davidian and Anton LaVey’s Church of Satan were mainstream parts of your religion. This is the dilemma faced by a Hindu at an interfaith event. When someone does speak for Hinduism, other Hindus are not slow to point out when they say something that does not represent all Hindus. An example of this is the “Declaration of the Second Hindu-Jewish Leadership Summit”. Among other things this says:

It is recognized that one supreme being in its formless and manifest aspects has been worshipped by Hindus over the millennia. The Hindu relates to only the one supreme being when he/she prays to a particular manifestation. This does not mean that Hindus worship ‘gods’ and ‘idols’.

Now without going into a lengthy description of Hindu theology, most Hindus see some images of God as being aspects of the one creator God (Ishvara), whereas others are illustrious beings (Devas), and are as separate and individual as you or I. Different schools have different concepts of exactly how separate you, I, and the Devas are, ranging from absolutely separate at one extreme to any separateness from God being illusionary at another. I think it is reasonable to say that the view of Hinduism put forward here by Swami Dayananda Saraswati is overstepping the mark by implying that the statement covers all Hindu beliefs. Some Hindus have expressed this in very strong terms. Sandhya Jain wrote:

This is outrageous. A Hindu guru who upholds the legitimacy for Hindus of the literature of another religion, and tries to make Hindu Dharma pass standards set by that intolerant sect, is betraying the Devas, the Dharma, the bhaktas, the Desh – nothing more need be said in this matter. In one stroke, he has also legitimised the missionary and jihadi hatred of and assault upon Hindu dharma in Hindu bhumi.

Hindus who do take part in inter-religious dialogue should be very clear that they are not speaking for the whole of Hinduism. Except in very general terms, nobody can. This is why I make it clear that what I write reflects my own thoughts only.

Another reason that some Hindus are reluctant to get involved in inter-religious dialogue is that it is often seen as an attempt to evangelise or convert, or at least to find information useful when attempting to convert people. This is a genuine concern, as some groups openly suggest that inter-religious dialogue should indeed be used to hone conversion tactics. Jason Barker writes on the Evangelical Christian website “Watchman Fellowship”:

Interreligious dialogue is related to evangelism in two ways: “Christians must practice dialogue with non-Christians (1) to understand the situation of non-Christians and how the gospel answers their needs; (2) answer questions raised by people to involve them in a personal encounter with the claims of God.” This relation of dialogue and evangelism can be seen in the Bible.

… dialogue enhances the efficacy of evangelism. The clarified understanding of other religions will be published in books and articles about the religions, many of which will be read by pastors and evangelists, as well as transmitted to average churchgoers. These people will then be able to present the gospel in a way that most effectively addresses the needs and thinking of people in other religions.

Clearly these groups are not seeing dialogue as a means of mutual understanding but as a means to convert others to their own faith. Other Christian groups see the purpose of dialogue as an opportunity to state their own faith, while not necessarily trying to convert others. J.E. Lesslie Newbigin writes:

On the basis which has been laid down one can speak briefly of the purpose with which the Christian enters into dialogue with people of other faiths. This purpose ‘can only be’ obedient witness to Jesus Christ. ‘Any other purpose, any goal which subordinates the honour of Jesus Christ to some purpose derived from another source, is impossible for the Christian.’ To accept such another purpose would involve a denial of the total lordship of Jesus Christ. A Christian cannot try to evade the accusation that, for him, dialogue is part of his obedient witness to Jesus Christ.

But this does not mean that the purpose of dialogue is to persuade the non-Christian partner to accept the Christianity of the Christian partner. Its purpose is not that Christianity should acquire one more recruit. [emphasis mine]

Though less destructive than the previous reason for entering dialogue, being present only to state your own faith and not understand that of others makes it a futile practice. So, what is necessary for interfaith dialogue to work? I think that Leonard Swidler’s Ten Rules for Interfaith Dialogue set a good basis. I cannot quote them in full for copyright reasons, but the essence is that dialogue should be an open, honest discussion between equals, with all sides being willing to learn, and to attempt to “walk in the other’s shoes” and understand what it means to follow the other’s religion.

Dialogue under these rules has many positives. Probably the biggest benefit is the elimination of misunderstanding, so many people have preconceived ideas about what other religions believe. This is particularly true of Hinduism in the West, so many authors write in good faith about the minority Smarta/advaita vedanta philosophy as though it were Hinduism. We should not forget that Hindus too have misconceptions about other religions.

Inter-religious dialogue also helps us see our own religions from another perspective, which may help us understand and appreciate parts of our own religion, and to find new ways to express them. There are many examples of Hindus seeing their own religion reflected in others, such as the “Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta” by Swami Prabhavananda.

In summary I would say that Hindus should continue their tradition of close alliance with dharmic religions, and engage in genuine dialogue with non-dharmic religions. While it is certainly true that some people will study the dialogue and try to use this to convert Hindus, the benefits in mutual understanding and a new view of Hinduism outweigh this.

We should still avoid “false dialogue”, where one side has no intention of listening, and has come merely to express their own view. This at best wastes time, and at worst aids their conversion attempts without benefit.

Finally, we should clearly indicate when what we are describing is something believed by all Hindus (a very rare occurrence), by most Hindus, by our particular sect, or when it is our own thoughts. This is important for followers of most religions, but particularly to Hindus because of the diversity of beliefs.


© 2012 Tāndava Nadesan, Western Hindu

This entry was posted in Interfaith Dialogue, Theology and tagged , , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

55 Responses to A Hindu Perspective on the Importance of Dialogue

  1. Aldercat says:

    Wow! What you say about dialogue is so well said, and clearly stated. Thank you for that! I have several reasons for participating in this project, and with this group. Selfishly I want better to know my own beliefs, and what better way to do so than to engage in discussion about it. Another reason I’m interested in this project is that I really want to know, in as much as I can, what people are like outside my western-centric (I don’t think that is a real word, but I will use it) mind set. Religion, faith and all the adjectives that go along with it are very cultural. I would hope that knowing more about culture, and as a part of culture, the religious and faith practices, I can gain a better understanding of the world I’m a part of. Thank you for sharing!
    I’m bothered by the words of the author Jason Barker. Assuming a Christian’s motivation, or anyone other denomination, is conversion, their words should have no bearing on the other individual. I need to use care here, but I would assume that, in terms of conversion the Holy Spirit, or God, or whatever, would “take care of that” and not the individual who is speaking. The individual is just a person with information they providing. Subject to interpretation, we live in free-will world, and the choice to believe what we believe, is free (less cultural, political, and a other pressures). I really hope that makes the sense that I want it to; I would be happy to clarify. Again, thanks for posting!

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Thank you,
      I have to say that as I am a Western convert to Hinduism my mindset may be Western at times too. I understand your point, from a Christian theological perspective conversion comes from the spirit. Just telling someone about Jesus should do it. However evangelicals often act as though they don’t believe this, using aggressive conversion tactics, which at times even include lies, or even threats and bribes.

    • This is a difficulty which is faced by every religious tradition — the fanaticism of some in their religious dogmatism. In fact it is described rather well in Eric Hyde’s article:

      There exists a deep insecurity in the integrity of one’s religious foundations when one’s beliefs were initially formulated as a quick fix for their internal/emotional pain, or formulated in a reactionary manner “against” someone or something.

      This seems to be a systemic problem in ‘younger’ traditions within the religions. Yet I have personal problems generalising this in Christianity to the ‘Evangelicals,’ for two reasons; the term Evangelical has been hijacked by a specific form of conservationism. Originally it was a description of any Gospel centred Christianity, and is used in this sense of the German Lutheran Church (‘der Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland‘). Secondly, because this psychological rigidity can, by the definition given by Eric, be found in all religious expressions. The perceived need to convince others of the truth of ones’ own religious belief I suspect comes from a deep-seated need within oneself to be convinced.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Aldercat , can you clarify this for me please:

      Assuming a Christian’s motivation, or anyone other denomination, is conversion,

      .
      Do you see conversion as your main motivation? If so does this include it being the main motivation when taking part in inter-religious dialogue?

    • Aldercat says:

      Tandava – My motivation is not conversion. This was the tricky part for me, because my motivation is based learning, and knowing, not converting. My motivation for being here is two-fold; to better understand my own beliefs by being able to discuss them in the blog forum, and getting to know my neighbor. That is key for me because the blog forum allows me to think things through more thoroughly before making a statement. Getting to know others affords me the opportunity to know, in as much as possible, a real person. An example of this is being able to reference your comments about the diversity of Hindu beliefs; one size does not fit all. This adds value to others I converse with, and being able to reference a real person lends additional credibility to the conversation. I hope that clarifies things for you, and thank you for asking.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Thank you, that does clarify things

  2. This is very interesting. We were just studying the history of this part of the world the other day. Thank you.

  3. Bill says:

    Hello,

    I’m a Christian. It sounds as though you don’t care to try to persuade someone to believe in Hinduism. Why is that? Am I misunderstanding?

    Thanks,
    Bill

    • Hello Bill, thanks for the question. I too am a Christian. The point which Tāndava makes is that each person is endowed with their own reason and has the freedom to make their own decisions without coercion or the disrespect of others toward their very personal faith choice. If his presentation of his Hinduism has touched you – in conscience and conviction – then the choice to convert is all your own. If not, then you are at liberty to understand him and his faith better.

      The point of this Interfaith Project is for people like us (you, Tāndava and I) to share the details of our own faiths as we ourselves understand them and live them, and to give us the opportunity to learn more about the faiths and journeys of others. Yet I am sure when he arises from his slumber he will be happy to answer this question on his own. Thanks for the question and please do enjoy the project.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      I would add to that, the first thing that many Hindus do if someone says they want to convert is discourage them. If their reason is simply that they are discouraged by their own religion, we tell them that sorting this out within their faith will be a lot easier than changing to a new one. This is similar to the traditional Jewish practice of turning people seeking conversion away three times. The point is that people converting to Hinduism really need to be called to this path. I wrote a blog post in which I expressed the feeling that rather than converting I discovered that I was a Hindu, and in a sense always had been but didn’t know it. Several other Western converts contacted me and said that this is exactly what they felt.

      The long and short of it is that the point of Hinduism is to realise the divinity within yourself and in everything. We may believe that Hinduism is the best vehicle for that, but if someone has driven nine-tenths of the way from London to Madrid would you pull them back and tell them to take a plane? Come to that if someone was very happy driving would you pull them back even if they were just starting out?

    • Bill says:

      Thanks for the responses.

      So, if Jesus says, He is the only way to get to heaven, and Hinduism teaches that there are many ways, you’re saying that they are both correct? To use your analogy, we’re all going to Madrid, regardless of how we get there?

      If you say we’re all going to heaven, aren’t you saying my religion is wrong, and Hinduism is right?

      Thanks,
      Bill

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Yes, of course I’m saying that your religion is wrong in saying that it is the only way to get to heaven. That is not to say that everything about it is wrong, or that sincerely practising it cannot bring spiritual advancement.

    • Tāṇḍava, I really liked this answer. Thank you. It was brutally honest (a hard thing to do in religious dialogue), but it showed genuine warmth and concern. Please don’t imagine that I am condescending you in this comment — it is important for readers (who may be novices) to see these things spelled out. It was a brilliant answer in fact.

    • I would be interested to know quite where Jesus says that he is the only way to get to heaven. The Gospel of Saint John says, “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6 NRSV).’” Here Jesus uses an essentially Christian term for God; ‘πατέρα.’ Assuming that Jesus spoke Aramaic, this (if Jesus did say it) was likely ‘אבא (abba).’ So it is through Christ that the Christian approaches the ‘Christian’ idea of God. This in fact says nothing of ‘getting to heaven’ nor how a person of another faith approaches her or his idea of God.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      This is very similar to the way that I, and some other Hindus see Jesus, as a guru. The message “No one comes to the father except through me” was meant as a guru-sishya (devotee/disciple) message, and not a general message to all.

      There is a story I heard about a young devotee whose guru was teaching him humility, by making him sweep the ashram floors. He grew tired of this, he thought he should be learning meditation and self-realisation techniques, and having marvellous results. He decided to leave and go to another guru. When he got there this other guru amazed him by saying “You already have a guru. Just as my sishyas come to God through me, you must go through your guru”. Surprised that this guru knew about his guru he begged leave to go. “You can go”, said the guru he was visiting,, “but first … just to help you learn humility, you must sweep my ashram.

      That story may well be apocryphal, I have heard it said about the young Paramahansa Yoganadda and the young Swami Vivekananda. It does illustrate though how a guru saying to his sishyas “you can only find God through me” does not preclude other gurus leading their own followers to God.

    • You may never know, Tāṇḍava, how much that little nugget of apocryphal wisdom has enriched my understanding of the above quoted Gospel text. This shall be used to torment students for decades to come. If you can find a text where I can read more please let me know. Thanks again.

  4. Pingback: Importance of Dialogue – a Hindu Perspective. | Western Hindu

  5. Bill says:

    Hello,

    I appreciate your honesty in saying that I’m wrong. It seems many people are unwilling to speak what they believe to be truth. Many would say they don’t boldly speak the truth for the sake of the other person’s feelings, but I believe it is actually just for the sake of getting along at any cost, which is very unloving and selfish. The truth is more important than feelings.

    I’m interested in how this relates to the Hindu concept of maya. There appear to be distinctions between Hinduism and Christianity, but doesn’t maya imply that the distinctions aren’t real? Doesn’t Hinduism teach that any distinctions that appear are only illusion, and that all is one?

    As far as John 14:6, there may be many interpretations, but there is only one correct interpretation. The correct interpretation would be what Jesus meant. I appreciate you’ve attempted to determine what He meant, but you’ve attempted that through the lens of Hinduism. However, Jesus was Jewish.

    Jesus never said anything to imply that He was only concerned with Jews getting to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In fact in John 10:16 He said, “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”

    The other sheep He was speaking of are non-Jews (i.e. Gentiles). In this world, there are two types of people, Jews and non-Jews, so He was speaking of everyone on earth. Jesus never implied that there are other gods or other concepts of God. He was Jewish, and He was absolutely consistent with the Old Testament, and monotheism.

    So when He says, He’s the only way to the Father, He’s saying there is no other way to get to heaven. To say He could have meant otherwise means would make nonsense of everything He said, and the entire Bible.

    He repeated the idea that He’s the only way to get to heaven in many different ways. Such as John 3:5, 3:16, 3:36, Matthew 16:24-26. I could give you dozens or maybe even hundreds of such verses, but I will refrain.

    Thanks for your time in this discussion.

    Bill

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Bill,
      I really don’t know of how I could answer a direct question like that without telling the truth. It would be plainly ridiculous for me to say that Christianity is correct that it is the only way to heaven when I am following a different religion.

      Regarding maya, this is one of the areas where the Smarta and Advaita vedanta schools of Hinduism. Advaita does say that the whole world is illusion. My school, the Nandinatha Sampradaya has an interpretation which I think is more representative of the belief of most Hindus:

      This universe, and indeed all of existence, is maya, Siva’s mirific energy. While God is absolutely real, His emanated world is relatively real. Being relatively real does not mean the universe is illusory or nonexistent, but that it is impermanent and subject to change. It is an error to say that the universe is mere illusion, for it is entirely real when experienced in ordinary consciousness, and its existence is required to lead us to God.
      – Dancing with Shiva, Sloka 45

      From this perspective, the differences are real, but since the universe is subject to change and will one day end, ultimately the difference will be unimportant, it is not something permanent and unchanging like God.

    • Dear Bill, it was not Tāṇḍava who attempted to determine what Jesus meant in John 14:6. It was me. I am not a Hindu but a Christian. I am sorry, but I do not believe that there is ‘only one correct interpretation’ as you would have us believe. You say that Jesus was a Jew, and this he was. You will know then that Judaism has a rich tradition in the Talmud of disagreeing on interpretation. I would agree that we should consider this Jewish route of Jesus and continue to look for alternative readings of these texts.

  6. Tāṇḍava says:

    homophilosophicus,
    As agreed I have reblogged this article on my own blog. I have had a number of interesting replies, including some question as to whether I should take part in this dialogue. I am certain that you are taking part in this dialogue to bring people together without the aim to convert anyone.

    However a commenter has suggested that I ask you directly about your attitude to missionary and evangelical activities in general. I think that it is also fair for me to ask these questions in an open forum, where others can see your answers. I hope you understand my position, that as a convert to Hinduism I need to ensure that what I am doing is not considered harmful, and hopefuly will be considered as beneficial to Hinduism.

    A little link-following from the Anglican Church of Ireland site shows that it is connected to the organisation CMS Ireland, which among other things supports a mission in Nepal. Since Nepal is 80% Hindu this will certainly involve the proselytisation of Hindus.

    Do you support this, oppose this, or have no opinion on it? What limits and safeguards (if any) do you think there should be on what is done to convert somebody?

    • Dear Tāṇḍava, This question is the most important question of the dialogue process. Thank you for asking it and thank your for the courage in asking it. My answer will, no doubt, upset some, but I ask that you read it all the way to the end before allowing any mid-point reactions. It certainly feels as though everyone reading is on the edge of their seats with bated breath waiting for an answer. The reason for the delay in answering – to clear that up – is that I was away from the city and this laptop last night and today.

      It is my hope to convert people; not to my faith, but to better understanding and to tolerance. We watch the television news and read the newspapers and see a world beset with conflict and intolerance. At the same time the secular media drives religion and religious dialogue out from the public platform, and yet fails to see that some (if not most) of the ills of modernity stem from cultural differences and anxieties in which religion and religious difference plays no small part. Rather than witnessing the secular agenda remove funding from the arts, theology and religious discourse, I would like to see a mature response wherein religion (in all its expressions) is seen as an integral component of the grammar underlying cultural conflict and therefore must be a key to bringing about religious and cultural tolerance – and indeed harmony.

      Christianity (my own faith expression) is missionary and evangelical by its very nature. It would be absurd to deny this. The means of understanding this nature, however, is in its interpretation. Religion, as part of the grammar of human interaction, may see my faith as a dialect of the universal language of the human experience of the divine, and I am happy with this understanding. As a Scot I know the experience of having my spoken dialect punished in school in favour of some artificial BBC English. I am a proud speaker of my Scots dialect, as I am a proud Anglo-Catholic (‘High Church Anglican’) Christian. I rejoice in the dialects and languages of the world in which I live; where yours and mine play a part in allowing us to speak. By Evangelical I understand that I am a Christian who is nourished by the Gospel and attempt to live out that Gospel in my own life. The term Evangelical, much to my own disgruntlement, has been hijacked by another, newer form of Christianity. To be diplomatic, let it simply be said that this is not my form of Christianity.

      I believe in Mission! I believe that it is my duty to comfort the heartbroken, feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the prisoner. This is mission. There are forms of missionary activity which patronise and abuse the consciences and freedoms of others. I hold no truck with this nonsense. I categorically do not believe that I should or must tell people about Jesus or insist that they must be ‘saved.’ Again this comes down to the grammar of religion; no one need accept my BBC faith. As the Catholic theologian Karl Rahner wrote of the ‘Anonymous Christian’ in his discussion of the universality of salvation, so I am honoured to be called an Anonymous Hindu. In times past the Anglican Church was at the forefront of colonial Missionary work, hand-in-hand with British Imperialism. This was misguided, cruel, often barbaric and deeply sinful. This was history. I cannot apologise for others and yet I am stung by the memory and regret.

      CMS Ireland is a hangover of the past and is regarded with a great deal of embarrassment by many Irish Anglicans (myself included). It is, however, a present reality and thankfully a minority sport. It has ‘missions’ to Roman Catholics, Jews, Hindus and many other faiths. Within the context of Ireland, a ‘mission’ to Roman Catholics – in particular – has been a cause of great harm today and in the past. I believe that it is my duty to tell my truth, and I believe this to be misguided in the extreme.

      Conversion is something that happens in the interiority of the person, and something which I am content not to be involved with. Conversion, insofar as it is a moral conversion from wickedness and crime, by all means I will attempt to persuade a sister or brother from doing harm. I am committed to dialogue, as a place where we may all speak this language in our own dialect. I am committed to this not merely because many would call me a Liberal (which actually I am not), but because this commitment is a tenet of my Christianity. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to answer this question.

    • I find it interesting that you feel so threatened by the response to your post, and appear to find it so offensive that there is a Christian mission in Nepal.
      I would like to respond to your concerns about 1) your fear that someone might try and convert someone else by using this interfaith dialogue and 2) missions.
      1) Firstly I would like to address what you said about Evangelical “tactics, which at times even include lies, or even threats and bribes.” You ask homophilosophicus about safeguards, surely if someone is threatening or bribing you while using the dialogue you can bring the matter to homophilosophicus and it would be dealt with. As for lies, well, you need only post a question here and I’m sure you would get a lot of feedback.
      Secondly, Hinduism may not encourage others to convert, but Christianity and Islam do. That Christianity believes that the only way for a person to go to heaven is to believe in Christ is what the faith is based on. How can you fault a religion for believing it is the only way to an everlasting life? Jesus taught tolerance and commanded that we love our neighbour. Maybe I should be turning the other cheek, but here I believe that I should try a conversation instead.
      It appears that you’ve had some back experiences with an Evangelist, or even the Evangelical church. You yourself said that many people make the mistake of thinking Hinduism is one religion with no sects. In the same spirit ask you not to brand all “Christians” as ‘lying, threatening and bribing’ non-Christians into converting.
      2) Missions may have originally started up with the start of colonialism, which sought to ‘civilize’ ‘savages’ as something the colonisers considered their duty as part of the ‘White Man’s Burden’. And one can choose to look at them as though they remain some sort of relics of the colonial era. However, to do so would be grossly underestimating the good that they do, with caring for the sick and elderly, providing food and clothes as well as education, for those who can’t afford them.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Zara,
      I think that a most of your questions are answered in the reply to bakelite (March 3, 2012 at 2:05 pm).

    • Dear Zara, in all fairness to our colleague Tāṇḍava, he is merely asking for clarification on this subject in light of feedback he himself has received on his own blog. One of the interesting things about this discussion is that it has many theatres of operation; it is happening on more than one blog at a time, and so it is difficult for people to get ‘the whole picture.’ My apologies for this.

  7. Tāṇḍava says:

    Does the term “dialogue” carry to much baggage? Someone commented on my blog:

    What I do feel is that we can continue our enlightened and informed discussions with each other instead of a “dialogue” that seems to acquire a new meaning.

    Maybe the word “dialogue” has too many connotations. We hear of opposing sides in a conflict, or refusing to join in dialogue unless preconditions are met.

    Entering dialogue implies something official and formal. People are more likely to question whether you should “engage in dialogue” rather than just have informed discussion. Perhaps we should just say discussion and eliminate the baggage of “entering a dialogue”.

    • Tāṇḍava, thanks for this thought. Actually, much to my shame, I had not thought of the baggage in the vocabulary of ‘dialogue.’ So far in my own experience of Jewish-Christian ‘Dialogue,’ it has just been an accepted term. I see no harm in changing the terminology or this word in particular. You are right. Here I hope only for an interaction of Friends. Truly you are my friend. So let’s just talk as such. Over the next wee while I will wander around the blog and ‘edit’ the term wherever I find it. This is certainly not a problem for me.

  8. Tāṇḍava says:

    Dear homophilosophicus,
    Thank you for your honest reply to my question about conversion and missionary work. I realise that my asking the question on the public forum was putting you on the spot – and some of the more conservative Christians may not like your response. By asking in the public forum I now have an answer that I can take back to those who were questioning whether I should be involved with interfaith discussions.

    I like your answer in wanting to convert people to tolerance. Again this is something that I believe my fellow Hindus will appreciate. By the way, I was not surprised by your delayed answer, I assumed that Sunday would be your busiest day!

    As for the use of the term “dialogue”, I had not thought about the baggage that comes with the word myself until one of my commenters obviously saw it in a negative light. On reading his comment I realised that the word did have a lot of negative connotations for people. Certainly if my fellow Hindus see “entering into dialogue” as some sort of official step I should not take, but having an informed discussion as acceptable then that’s fine with me!

    • ‘Informed discussion’ it is then. On a personal note, I would like to thank you for really pulling all the holds out. It has brought us to a place in discussion which is out side most people’s comfort areas. You are of great importance to this discussion and I appreciate your involvement – as an equal and as a friend. Please be personally assured, not as a Christian talking to a Hindu, but as me talking with You, that I will not try in any way to convince you of my faith or use any means whatsoever to undermine your faith and conscientious convictions. This would belittle both of us.

      I am not too worried about the disfavour of my Evangelical colleagues (many of whom refuse to see me as a Christian); I would be doing them a great disservice if I did not tell my truth. Over time, we will gather about us a regular readership and contributors and things will settle down. We must allow even the fundamentalists of our faiths a voice. I will guard carefully against conversion attempts – and there may be deletions. Any message deleted will receive a personal email explaining the reasons.

  9. Bill says:

    Dear homophilosophicus,

    You said, “it was not Tāṇḍava who attempted to determine what Jesus meant in John 14:6. It was me. I am not a Hindu but a Christian.”

    I realize that. That is why I didn’t address anyone in particular. You’re both talking to me and I responded to both of you. I will try to be less sloppy in the future.

    You said, “I am sorry, but I do not believe that there is ‘only one correct interpretation’ as you would have us believe.”

    So when Jesus was speaking He meant several different things at the same time? No, that isn’t the way language works. Your words mean what you intend them to mean. You and I are capable of miscommunication, but Jesus isn’t. You wouldn’t want me to interpret your words to my own liking; that would lead to a complete breakdown in communication.

    You said, “You say that Jesus was a Jew, and this he was. You will know then that Judaism has a rich tradition in the Talmud of disagreeing on interpretation.”

    I’m sure I don’t have to explain what Jesus thought of the scribes and Pharisees (those who wrote and believed the Talmud). He pulled no punches in calling them what they were. Jesus wasn’t like them. He spoke with authority. Matthew 7:28-29 says, “When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.”

    You said, “I would agree that we should consider this Jewish route of Jesus and continue to look for alternative readings of these texts.”

    Is that not the sentiment of the serpent in the garden? Hath God really said…? Your job as a Christian is to submit to Jesus. You claim to call Him Lord, but if that were true, you wouldn’t be looking for ways out of believing doctrines you dislike. And if you don’t understand why He is the only way to heaven, you don’t understand the gospel anyway.

    Thanks,
    Bill

    • Dear Bill, your contribution here is very much appreciated. This I mean with all sincerity, but we may have to agree to disagree at times. When Jesus was speaking he probably meant the one thing that he was saying. This makes perfect sense. One problem that we face is that we do not know what Jesus said; all that we do know is what the evangelists said he said many decades after his death and resurrection. These are Gospel ‘accounts’ we are dealing with, and not verbatim records.

      Jesus had many opinions of the ‘scribes and Pharisees,’ and many of them were not negative. Jesus had no problem with the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 23:2-3). What Jesus points out is that what they teach is true, but many of them do not practice what they preach. I say many because we have the scene of his conversation with Nicodemus. Much like Jesus’ scribes and Pharisees, many Christians do not practice what they preach. Should we Christians then abandon the faith on this ad hominem argument? No, we should not. Moreover, we must be very careful in equating the anti-Jewish sentiments of the Gospels with the Rabbinic Judaism of a later period. This leads only to a thinly veiled anti-Semitism (e.g. “He pulled no punches in calling them what they were.”). One must remember that these Gospel accounts were written by Palestinian Christian communities embroiled in a cultural and ideological dispute with the synagogues of the time.

      My job as a Christian is not to submit to Jesus, but to the dictates of my conscience. It is that conscience which leads me, personally, to a salvific relationship with Christ. The idea of ‘submission’ is foreign to the ancient Christian faith, and the only Abrahamic faith which demands it is Islam. I do not claim to call Jesus Lord. I have never claimed any such thing. I simply call him Lord, and I do this only with the sincerity of my conscience. Neither am I repeating what any mythological beast said in a mythological garden; as far as I remember the serpent asked a question in order to undermine the certainty of Eve. I have asked no questions. Unlike the serpent in the garden I have made a statement! One which is founded on my own personal understanding of my faith.

      Yes, there are doctrines I firmly dislike. There are doctrines which are so far removed from my belief in the being of a loving God so as to be positively diabolical. I reject them, as, at my baptism, I rejected Satan and all his lies. Original sin, for example. Do I believe that a loving God would damn to eternal hell fire Catherine who died an unbaptised baby? No. I reject it! The truth Bill, is that these doctrines are the doctrines of men, like you and I, who have wrestled with the interpretation of sacred texts — and failed.

      I am saddened that you think me so dull of wit so as to not understand that Jesus is the only way to heaven, and consequently do not understand the Gospel. I am saddened by this, but, alas, it is not the first time it has been said to me. One day I will stand before my Lord and my God and I will offer nothing more than the pathetic offering of my conscience to him (the conscience he instilled within me), and he — and only he — will do with me as he wills. Any God who demands that I act against my informed conscience and learning is not a God worthy of my devotion; as I too am wrought in the image and likeness of God.

  10. Bill says:

    Hello Tāṇḍava,

    I have another question for you. You believe Hinduism is true, but you don’t particularly care whether I convert to Hinduism, as we’ll all end up at the same destination. (Correct me if I misunderstand.) So, why would you care if Christians attempt to convert Hindus? Maybe, in much the same way you discovered you were Hindu, Hindus can discover they are Christians.

    Thanks,
    Bill

    • Now, now, Bill! This is a silly question. Tāṇḍava chose to be a Hindu in good conscience, as you choose to be a Christian. He would be offended, as would I, if you attempt to convert Hindus because you are undermining the freedom of people to chose their own path in life. By all means share what your faith is ‘to you.’ Some people will be so impressed and awed by it that they will come seeking baptism, others will not. This is something called respect.

      I must inform you though, as someone who does wish to talk with you, that any attempt to ‘convert’ or contempt the faith of another on this weblog will meet with a summary deletion. So I would ask that you please do not do this. It would be a shame to lose your valuable input.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      There are many reasons why. Conversion attempts often involve threats, bribes, deception, and lies. Those converted are often told to do the same. My belief is that those of any religion who believe that this behaviour is good and regularly practice it are moving further from God.

      Conversion attempts split communities and families. Evangelical Christians will frequently tell converts not to associate with people of other faiths.

      Finally, though all religions when practised in a certain way can bring us towards God, not all are as good. Going back to my analogy of travelling from London to Madrid, why would you pull back someone on an aircraft about to land in Madrid and put them on a bus that will take them only as far as the docks in Dover? (I am going too far here when talking about Christianity in general, but some evangelical branches which train people in manipulation and lies would do this).

      It is telling that the branches of Christianity that send missionaries are the ones based on fear. They say “god is really nasty to those who don’t follow him in exactly this way, and has built a hell for you”. Its as though two children each have a present for their father. One has composed a song, and the other painted a painting. The older child turns round and says “our loving father only likes paintings. If you sing him a song he will take his belt and beat you black and blue. Not once but every day of your life”.If the father really is loving, will he be pleased about this?

      If you see God as universally loving then there is no need for conversion, just a diversity of faiths universally trying to please God. And finally, I am not concerned about people who with no pressure discover they are Christian at heart. I would only try to convince them to be a Christian who sees God’s love, not God’s hate. In fact I (and other Hindus) have advised people to choose either Hinduism or Christianity rather than trying to straddle both streams and get nowhere.

  11. Bill says:

    Dear homophilosophicus,

    You said, “My job as a Christian is not to submit to Jesus, but to the dictates of my conscience. It is that conscience which leads me, personally, to a salvific relationship with Christ. The idea of ‘submission’ is foreign to the ancient Christian faith, and the only Abrahamic faith which demands it is Islam.”

    Jesus said, “Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[f] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it” (Matthew 16:24-25).

    If taking up your cross and following Jesus isn’t submission to Jesus, I don’t know what is. This is a call to radical submission. He then says, that if you don’t follow Him, you will lose your life.

    You said, “I do not claim to call Jesus Lord. I have never claimed any such thing. I simply call him Lord, and I do this only with the sincerity of my conscience.”

    I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying. If you say you’re a Christian, you’re claiming Jesus as Lord. That has been the definition of “Christian” for the last 2000 years. Being a Christian/calling Jesus Lord means doing what He says (Luke 6:46). If you love Him, you will obey His commands (John 14:15).

    I’ll just leave it at that, since we have a conversation going on my blog. Thanks for your time.


    Dear Tāṇḍava,

    Any Christian who would lie to, threaten or bribe someone else to become a Christian is probably not a Christian to begin with, or doesn’t at all comprehend what Christianity is. How can threats and lies cause God to raise someone from spiritual death to life?

    As far as the other things you’ve said about Christianity, I’m sorry to say that you have misrepresented it completely. If this is due to an ignorant Christian misinforming you, I apologize. The true message of the Bible is that we have all broken God’s law. Lying, stealing, having sexual thoughts or hateful thoughts about someone, disobeying our parents, are against His law. God is perfectly just and holy, and cannot just forgive guilty criminals. However, He has made a way to forgive our sins, and yet maintain His justice. [text removed: proselytising].

    So, while we were God’s enemies, Jesus died for us. You should submit to Jesus, not out of fear of hell, but because of what He has done for us. [text removed: proselytising].

    You can disagree with my religion if you like. But, the practice of my religion requires me to tell others what Jesus has done, and warn them about hell. It would be selfish, if not hateful, for me to believe that non-Christians are going to hell, and then not tell them what Jesus has done. I have no problem with Hindus arguing that their religion is superior to mine, as you have, but doesn’t it have to be a two way street? If you are upset with an Irish organization attempting to proseletyze Hindus, maybe you should attempt to convert some Christians. In fact, if you really believe Hinduism is superior to Christianity (i.e. Hinduism provides safer, faster travel to Madrid), aren’t you morally obligated to do so?

    Thanks,
    Bill

    • Bill, what you have said, ‘that you don’t understand what I am saying,’ may be a large part of the problem. There is a great difference between reciting verses from scripture and a firm grasp of the theological and philosophical nuances underlying the discussion of these texts. It is okay for you not to understand; we are all on a journey to greater understanding. There is also a difference between ‘submission’ and ‘following.’ Maybe if we consult a dictionary we will see that following or discipleship does not require the unconditional abnegation of personal responsibility and reason. Submission requires that one obey even when it is contrary to ones’ own better judgement and reason. It is on these grounds that I am a disciple of my Lord Jesus Christ and so lift up my cross and follow him.

      I do not claim to call Jesus Lord — I just call him Lord. I do not need to make the claim, I just do. The definition of Christian, incidentally, for the past two millennia has not been ‘claiming’ to call Jesus Lord. Rather Christianity has been defined in creedal form since the year 325. A Christian is one who professes faith in One God; Father, Son and Spirit, in one, holy, Catholic, Orthodox and Apostolic Church, in one baptism for the remission of sin, who looks for the resurrection of the dead and the life in the world to come. This is the ancient Christian faith. It is a little more complex than your ‘claim’ on Jesus’ lordship. Now, I have noticed that you seem to enjoy appointing yourself a judge on who is and who is not a Christian. You have no basis on which to assume this position. As I have said before, and I will say again, your contribution here is welcome — but there are rules to such a discussion. If you wish to persist in denying the Christianity of others then I may have to suggest to you that maybe this weblog isn’t the place for you. So with respect, and sincere gratitude for your participation, I ask you to respect the account of others at face value. No one is demanding that you believe the same. Stop demanding this of others.


      Dear Bill, I have read over the comment that you have made to Tāṇḍava. “You should submit to Jesus, not out of fear of hell, but because of what He has done for us.” Well actually he should not! This is bad Christian theology, and your demand that my colleague should do anything is bad manners. For the sake of the good harmony of this project, I have no option but to ‘edit’ what you have written. Please understand that this is a ‘yellow card.’ One more attempt to bully or manipulate (talk of the hell fire consequences of not doing as you say) anyone else will result in a ban. Now let us be clear, I think that what you have to say about your faith is valuable, I believe that in the ‘real’ world you are a nice man — but this is obnoxious behaviour and I would like us to move toward something more constructive. Can we do this?


      Bill, I would like to be a peacemaker here. Tāṇḍava did not claim that Hinduism was superior to Christianity. He simply said that it was ‘better for him.’ Your flavour of Christianity is ‘better for you,’ and we all get that. The discussion was on dialogue, or better – interfaith discussion. I would like to hear what you think is the importance of discussion. I am offering you an olive branch here — to make you a partner in this discussion. Please do not use this as an opportunity to proselytise. Talk with us.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Bill,
      I think there is such a large chasm between your concept of God and mine that you are not understanding what I said. I went too far in my criticism of Christianity further than was needed to let people understand my perspective. I’m sorry for that.

      I will try and reiterate what I said a slightly different way. If you believe that God loves all of us, and trust in God rather than your own concepts then there is no need to try and convert people.

      I will also add that the type of forced conversion where people are told not to have anything to do with non Christians (or non-Muslims, etc.), and to disrespect their places of worship and symbols is damaging to families and communities. It may not be as obviously damaging as the acts of Muslim extremists who kidnap Christian girls in Egypt and Hindu girls in Pakistan as “extra wives”, or who vandalise temples and kill critics, but it is damaging all the same. We cannot all live together in peace if you say anyone should be able to do anything at all because it is following their religion.

    • Yes, the idea of being able to do anything at all simply because ones’ religions commands us to is not good enough. This is a wonderful insight, and thank you for sharing it.

  12. Tāṇḍava, this is a fantastic article, thank you for sharing your meticulous study with us all. It is telling that the comments appearing here in response to your piece have highlighted some of the multifarious issues in and around dialogue. I didn’t have any awareness of the variety and interrelationships of Dharmic religions before reading this, so your participation here has definitely resulted in one of the best outcomes of dialogue, an increase in knowledge. In your contribution you also made a very insightful observation:

    “Inter-religious dialogue also helps us see our own religions from another perspective, which may help us understand and appreciate parts of our own religion, and to find new ways to express them.”

    This was fully borne out for me in reading several of the responses. Disputed aspects of my own religious tradition have been mentioned here that have left me thinking more deeply about where I can place myself spiritually when challenged with ideas such as Hellfire, Damnation and solely Christian claims to salvation. Also can I believe that a loving creator could demand the sacrifice of Isaac, or the putting of all Canaanites to the sword? Or is it really right to obey one’s parents against one’s conscience? Are our very natures as beings with psychosexual processes inherently sinful?

    Your quotation of Jason Barker also gave me pause for thought:

    “Interreligious dialogue is related to evangelism in two ways: “Christians must practice dialogue with non-Christians (1) to understand the situation of non-Christians and how the gospel answers their needs;”

    This fails to chime with my understanding of the Gospel to such an extent that I wonder have I actually encountered the same text at all. For me the Gospel is not there to simply answer needs, but is a challenge to the Christian, a very tough one, to attempt to meet the needs of the world.

    Certainly none of these are questions or issues I would wish to see hashed out here, particularly as I feel it is a shame that the discussion has gone off on a tangent quite far removed from the original content of a very valuable and well written contribution.

    Also if you could provide a few reading reccommendations and perhaps a bit of extra info on how your own community interracts with neighbouring religions I’d be very interested to learn more.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Thank you notbymysilence,
      I will give an extended reply later – I am just checking comments before work at the moment.
      Tandava

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Dear notbymysilence,
      I think that good online resources on Hinduism are Hinduism.about.com and for questions Hindu Dharma Forums. I also think that What is Hinduism is an excellent book and is available to read as PDF files or to buy as a book. It includes a lot of high-quality images so you will need a reasonably new computer to read it – each section is about 30MB in size. I also should warn you of my potential bias, it is published by the Sampradaya I follow.

      I can also highly recommend Am I a Hindu? The Hinduism Primer, by Ed Viswanathan. It takes the form of dialog between a Hindu father and his American-born son, covers a lot and is highly readable.

      My local Hindu community is mostly of Punjabi Indian descent, and they have extremely close ties with the local Sikh community. There are frequently Sikhs in our temple and Hindus in the Sikh Gurdwara. Amusingly one of my best friends at the Mandir (unfortunately he doesn ot attend often there) is a doctor, originally from Kolkata. He was educated before the teaching of Hindi was common in the region. One day he said to me “you know its nice you being here – I used to be the only regular attendee who’se English is much better than his Hindi. That made me think a bit about Hindu diversity.

      There are frequent educational trips from local schools to out Mandir. When I have been there at lunchtime (Its 5 minutes drive from my work) there have frequently been groups. There are sometimes other groups, from local churches, clubs, etc. Every year there is an interfaith walk, which is well attended by Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Jews, Bah’ai, etc. This visits local places of worship. The only exception are the Muslims, who don’t do interfaith events – though they do let us visit the cloakrooms of the Mosques where someone talks about Islam.

  13. Thank you notbymysilence, for such a comprehensive comment on the discussion so far, and thank you for the reminder that things have moved off topic. This move-from-topic, however, is one of the great gifts of conversation — so we can sit back and see where it takes us. I have the impression that your question, “Are our very natures as beings with psychosexual processes inherently sinful?,” is related to Bill’s comment that ‘having sexual thoughts’ was a breaking of God’s law. Yes, this struck me as rather odd as well. But this is his faith. From a more psychologically healthy standpoint we must, I feel, see sex as one of the great gifts a loving creator God has given us. Such a neurotic and rigid view of human sexuality comes with many other difficulties — many of which lead to abuse and real sin and wickedness. Lovely comment, thank you.

  14. Bill says:

    Hello Tāṇḍava,

    You said, “I will try and reiterate what I said a slightly different way. If you believe that God loves all of us, and trust in God rather than your own concepts then there is no need to try and convert people.”

    Then, are you saying Hinduism and Christianity are equal? All Christians and Hindus will all end up in heaven after death?

    If you respond to those in the affirmative, then, I don’t understand why proselytizing is so terrible. Why do you care if someone attempted to proselytize (assuming they don’t use the underhanded methods you describe) a Hindu, and that Hindu converted? It would make no difference whether that person was a Hindu or not.

    Hello homophilosophicus,

    What do you believe will happen to Tāṇḍava when he or she dies? How do you interpret John 3:36, (Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them), and it’s application in the case of Tāṇḍava?

    As far as my comment on sexual thoughts, I was referring to Matthew 5:27-28. “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

    Sex is a gift from God, and its practice is meant to be between a husband and wife.

    Thanks,
    Bill

    • My dear Bill, I must hand it to you — you are like a dog on a bone. I would doubt that my friend Tāṇḍava thinks that Christianity and Hinduism are equal; he has chosen that for himself Hinduism contains within it more truth for him. This is why he is not a Christian. For my part, Christianity has more truth to me. Let us imagine it like this; he drives a Volvo estate because he is a family man, and I drive a Mini Cooper because I am trying to become a family man. One is not objectively better than the other, but each is more suited to the needs of the individual. I believe that people of good faith and a clear conscience, who have acted righteously will go to heaven regardless of their particular creed. Proselytising may or may not be terrible. On this point it may only be commented that it is ‘unsolicited.’ If someone asks you to tell them your opinion of how they might get to heaven then you may tell them all about it — in a private communication. Further to this point, this is a redundant question, as proselytising is expressly forbidden on this forum.


      You have asked for my opinion on what will happen to Tāṇḍava post-mortem. This is a rather rude and obnoxious question to ask of someone Bill, but I feel that you are genuinely struggling with some of these issues — so just this once I will give you my thoughts on the death of Tāṇḍava. You might, at the very least, take the trouble to discover whether or not my friend is a woman or a man before asking such impertinent questions. When ‘he’ dies (which I hope is no time soon) ‘he’ will be buried according to his religious traditions and customs. His family will be deeply hurt and will mourn for him and miss him for the rest of their lives. His body will either be burned, in which case it will turn to ash (I am not too familiar with Hindu burial customs), or he will be buried whereupon he will decompose and rejoin the soil. Whatever happens to his soul, or inner self, is a matter for him and his creator. So with regard to the mortality of Tāṇḍava I think that we are all exactly the same.


      Before I answer any questions on the interpretation of ancient texts, would you please tell me the reason for trusting the veracity of the very many texts you cut and paste from Bible websites? Why should I trust John 3:36? Why should you?


      On sexual ethics. You quote some obscure passage from the NIV (an interpretation of the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek Bible) and defend a profoundly disordered and psychologically dangerous view of human sexuality in defence of what you have said before. To look on a woman ‘lustfully’ is adultery and therefore a sin, and that sex is a gift from God so long as it is between husband and wife. So if this were to be true are we to think that a young man cannot become sexually aroused and get an erection looking at a girl, his girlfriend or his betrothed without committing a serious sin? Heterosexual men do not wish to marry heterosexual women whom they are not sexually attracted to. The application of this absurd scripture (interpreted as you would have it) means that marriage and the propagation of the human species is impossible without sin. Maybe you ought to go and rethink this entire idea. Am I to guess then that you have never been excited by a woman or man? That you have never masturbated? And that your wife or partner did not excite your passions before you were married?

  15. Important, Please Read: Dear all, I have been reading over some of Bill’s own wordpress blog, Fisher of Men. Frankly I find it rather disturbing. I can only apologise if his presence on this forum has upset anyone. He is involved with some programme known as WOTM (Way of the Master) Evangelism. This is described by one supporter on his page as ‘ambush evangelism,’ and apparently it is the way Jesus did it. One comment he makes on his ‘about’ page is rather chilling:

    The majority of people in this world are going to spend eternity in hell. God has given me a love for them that helps me overcome my fear, and speak boldly.*

    At the present I am wary of having this type of fanatical agenda on the forum for fear of the damage it will do to our early trust building. I would like to know other people’s opinions. We have to reach the point where enough is enough, and we may have enact our first ban. His behaviour has already crossed the line and I think that now it might be proper to consider him an ‘internet troll.’


    Tāṇḍava, I am so sorry that this foolishness has hijacked your first post. I shall be more guarded in future. Please remember that replying further to him may only add fuel to the fire.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Dear homophilosophicus,
      I have read his latest post and he does not seem to be bringing anything new up, just repeating the same thing. I see no need to respond to him again. It does seem that the stated aim of his site is the opposite of this one. I am not going to say whether or not he should be banned. I will make two observations:

      First, if your aim is “… to convert people; not to my faith, but to better understanding and to tolerance”, then any attempt to convert someone to something else should be seen in the same way that someone going to Bill’s site and trying to convert someone to Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. should.

      Secondly, banning people without a clear statement of any rules should be avoided. It is possible that if you had a clear rule stating that there should be no overt evangelism or attempt convert anyone to any faith (apart from tolerance and understanding), that he would make some positive contribution.

      Also, WordPress gives you tools that you can use short of a full ban; you can have a particular user’s comments put in a moderation queue for approval. Obviously this involves extra work for you, so its use needs to be limited, but it does give you the opportunity to put someone on probation.

      I think it is worth having a comment policy so that people know before hand that you may remove or edit comments, and in what way. I personally think it is important that you never edit a comment without making it clear that you have done so, and never to edit a comment in a way that changes its meaning.
      Regards
      Tandava

    • Yes Tāṇḍava, I think that you are quite right. There is already a set criteria for interfaith discussion on the Interfaith Page. We will wait and see how things go. I will look into the further moderation. This, I had gathered, was to be expected — but I am very sorry for the annoyance it has caused anyone.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      Dear homophilosophicus,
      Your link to the criteria in your comment is broken, it should be http://homophilosophicus.wordpress.com/introduction/interfaith-project/.
      Regards
      Tāṇḍava

    • Thanks for that. It has been amended now.

  16. Bill says:

    Hello,

    I’m sorry if I have offended anyone. I’m genuinely interested in understanding Hinduism. It seems as though Tandava and I may have spoken past each other. Maybe Christians and Hindus have different ways of thinking, and it will require more time for me to learn to see things as a Hindu does. If you aspire to a religious dialog, I think you must be open to hearing something that may be offensive to you.

    Homophilosophicus, the only reason I left yesterday’s comment, was because you invited me to on my blog. Feel free to delete and edit whatever you like. I will self-ban myself from your blog. You are invited to comment anytime on my blog, and you can say anything you like as long as there are no cuss words.

    Thanks for your time in this conversation. Again, I’m sorry if I have offended anyone.

    Bill

    • Bill, thank you for this. You simply must understand that I do not want to ban you or anyone else, and yes, sometimes people will get offended from time to time. We all appreciate this, but deliberate attempts to undermine or proselytise people will not be allowed. Statements about your own personal faith — as they apply to you, no matter how hard for others this may be is fine. Here we can talk about these things. If you are willing to engage in this type of discussion (and not use it as a circuitous route to proselytise) then we can forget all this talk about banning. Between you and I, this is causing me some stress. Your blog is your business, and Catholics can burn in hell for all eternity there if you like — but not here! Can we please agree to this? Give me a positive answer and all can be well with the world again, and we can all be friends.

  17. brakelite says:

    Hello everyone. Regardless of whether certain contributions have been ‘off-topic’, offensive, or disagreeable, I must admit to finding the conversation absolutely riveting. I also find myself, as a Christian in a branch of faith that cherishes Jesus’ admonition to preach the gospel to every kindred, nation, tongue, and people, (Mark 16:15; Revelation 14:6), having some sympathy for Bill’s perspective.
    It seems to me that those of us who do not subscribe to the post modernist view that truth is relative to one’s subjective feelings will find it difficult in the extreme to ‘dialogue’ or have any interfaith discussion without ‘offending’ someone. We come from a different paradigm in thought and speech. To us, truth is not relative. When Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life, He wasn’t intimating that by by denying Him we were simply expressing another ‘truth’.
    Like I said, I am a Christian who believes that preaching the gospel is a non-negotiable adjunct to the Christian faith. I think that what we must be clear on is ‘what is the gospel’. Paul I think put it most succinctly, when he said something to the effect ( I am paraphrasing) “I spoke of nothing among you except to preach Christ and Him crucified”. He offended many also. Being tossed out of town repeatedly, flogged, beaten, left for dead, shipwrecked and finally killed, he did what he did for the sake of saving lost humanity form the bondage of sin and death.
    And from my reading of the scriptures, God has provided only one avenue for lost humanity to be reconciled to a holy God. That my friends is through His only Son, Jesus Christ, and through acknowledging the death and the shedding of blood as an atonement for sin. Hence why the command from Jesus, go into all the world and preach the good news that Jesus came to save sinners. If the early apostles and disciples had heeded the post-modernist view that we should all be tolerant of one another’s faiths to the point of acceptance, then Christianity would have died 2000 years ago.
    That said, I also believe that God is a God of love, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. So I believe that there will be people saved and in heaven from all faith dimensions, those who are genuinely seeking after Truth (note the capital T) and are living fully according to what light they have received.
    Because I claim to have the Truth, I have been called bigoted, narrow minded, close minded, and arrogant. I must admit at times that they were probably quite correct. My contributions in future I am sorry will continue to come from this perspective. Not to ‘badger’ or force people to accede to my view, but I cannot compromise that which I believe.

    LOL…this was intended to be a simple response to this thread…it has turned out to be an article in itself. Apologies.
    Brendan.

    • Precisely Brendan, this is a very honest presentation of your tradition and it is one which I greatly appreciate. This was the reason I asked you to be a contributor, after all. So thank you. I doubt that Paul spoke nothing but the Gospel; that would make him a rather uninteresting person. Rather we can say that he always preached the Gospel while not always ‘talking.’ This way the totality of the Gospel may be seen also in the way one does something — the ‘aroma,’ we could say. This is what I understand when I read:

      When I came to you, brothers and sisters, I did not come proclaiming the mystery of God to you in lofty words and wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:1-2).

      On the subject of post-modernism, I must say that I am not a relativist nor am I a reductionist. I believe that there is an objective and universal truth;

      Truth is that transcendent and objective reality which conscience is incapable of ignoring without igniting within it a conflict that cannot be resolved until it is realigned with the Truth (On Conscience, January 2012).

      So to me there is truly a Truth which saves, but as a transcendent reality this truth is ontologically distinct from mere factuality.

    • Tāṇḍava says:

      bakelite,
      I have been thinking about your post, and really there is nothing wrong with expressing your faith and your belief that it is true. It is my belief that relativism can work in the small but not in the large. What I mean is that there are some things that can be seen as culturally relative; for example what constitutes “decent dress”, how loud it is acceptable to shout when in public and where, and so on. On the other hand, things like deception, stealing, killing, violence, etc. should always be seen as wrong.

      I think that if you can hold to the conditions and aims of discussion, and meet homophilosophicus’s criteria then a useful discussion is possible. Ideally we should be able to understand each-other’s views not just in theory but to be able to feel what it would be in each-other’s shoes.

      If people’s believes are such that they cannot meet the criteria then I cannot see any value in discussions. I should have stopped the conversation with bill before I did, looking back I think I realsied that he was not going to understand my view because conversion (or maybe even a futile attempt at trying) was more important to him than understanding.
      Aum

    • Actually this was a useful exercise in the learning process. Now we have better seen where the boundaries are, and so now we can move on — ‘in peace, love and harmony.’ It may be important also that this ‘conversion game’ was never the objective of the project. As we move on from here and begin to discuss the themes through the monthly digest we will come to see that this discussion is about wider issues, common to all of us, articulated through religious view points. It is not about the ‘comparative benefits’ of any one religion over another. So everyone can keep their treasured conceptions of the superiority of their own faith without it interrupting the ongoing discussion. I would like to thank everyone for their contributions to this theme so far; it has been an amazing read and a white-knuckle ride — so thank you all very much.

Please Feel Free to Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s